Monday, June 28, 2010

Tumbleweeds

I was reading some blogs this morning when I read a post over at Priest With A Cause that got me comparing the Burning Crusade heroic dungeons to the old western town that is abandoned with tumbleweeds blowing through them. What I took away from the post was a question of why do players not want to switch up the content some instead of running nothing but Utgarde Keep and the Nexxus? I think the simple answer here is that most people associate the dungeons with gear and naturaly even the most simplest of players understand that new and shiny is better than old and worn. The more experienced players understand that their experience per mob is twice that of the Burning Crusade heroic dungeons. Those two factors alone will single handedly kill the older content. Yes, you can probably attribute newer players not understanding the attunement issues, but most players eventually figure these things out by wandering into the knowledge. The real question here is how the hell does Blizzard correct this issue?

The issue is nothing new though and based on the track record, it is not one that Blizzard seems to care the least to fix. I would not even waste my time on this topic except there is a slight glimer of hope found in the fact that Blizzard has stated that they desire to put the feeling of being epic back into the epic gear. If this is in fact the case, then there is a slight chance that the gear we have now will not be as trivial as the gear we had in the previous expansion. If we look back at the history of the expansions, we can clearly see that the epics of Vanilla WoW were completely made obsolete by the greens of the Burning Crusade. It did not matter what you had or where it came from. After a few quests in Outland, your old epic gear was rubbish and nothing more than something to store to wear for fun or to sell for gold. When Wrath came out, some of the top tiered gear from the end game of the Burning Crusade was still viable into the low to mid seventies. With all of my characters who were geared to the teeth at the end of BC, I was able to make far into Wrath before I truly needed to upgrade. I doubt this pattern will change too much though in this expansion as there are only five levels until cap. So why all this talk of gear and how far it will go?

The gear is probably the number one driving force for any of us running content. We need gear to progress to the next level of whatever we are doing in the game. Blizzard has recognized this to a certain degree and is going to make rare items more powerful and hopefully put the epic back into epic items. So how can this help the older content dungeons? At first it may not be able to do much, but what if Blizzard plans to reevaluate their item levels and loot charts for older content. Imagine if when Cataclysm launched that the older dungeons were made viable again by Blizzard putting the same equivelant items in Stratholme as was in Ramparts? There would be a reason for people to run these instances now. Imagine if the heroic dungeons of Burning Crusade dropped items that were equivelant to the middle range of dungeons in Wrath such as Violet Hold and Draktheron Keep? It would certainly encourage people who are leveling their new Goblins or Worgen to run these dungeons. Now imagine if they removed the attunements for the older herocis and removed the labels of Vanilla, BC, and Wrath and whatever dungeon was appropriate for you, you then would stand a chance to get.

The trick here is that the developers will not do such a huge overhaul of their game if the people do not cry out about it. I am sure they are aware that no one is running Heroic Blood Furnace, but why would they fix that which no one wants? So it is up to us players who like this content to start threads demanding that this shit be fixed. That loot tables be changed. That item levels be equalled between the soon to be four different parts of WoW. That content be made relevant again. It may seem like quite a bit of work, but considering they are removing stats, merging stats, and changing itemization on gear that makes sense; then I dare say that it is not too difficult to begin the integration of the items to one smooth flow for all of the game. Yes this may mean that you lose epics from BC and Wrath, but wouldn't you freely want to trade some of that shit for the chance to actually run this content again and be able to experience it as you level your next character? I know I damn sure would.

10 comments:

Jen said...

"But wouldn't you freely want to trade some of that shit for the chance to actually run this content again and be able to experience it as you level your next character?"

No thanks. Most Vanilla dungeons are mazes; some are really, really pretty, but I have no intention of getting lost before even entering Sunken Temple. The TBC dungeons are better, but I seriously doubt they are doable with today's WoW population. When's the last time you saw someone use CC? And, from a personal point of view, I've done them so much. They're boring. Just as boring as UK and Nexus, and harder. Even with equivalent gear, why would I want to struggle for 3 hours for a maybe-upgrade instead of facerolling for 1 hour? My goal is to get to 80 and raid, not die horribly in some shitty Auchindoun dungeon because the tank doesn't get the idea of "mana burn".

I hope the Cataclysm dungeons manage a combination of the good parts of TBC and the good parts of Wrath - shorter than TBC but harder than Wrath, so you can get a challenge without wasting half a night in there.

Anonymous said...

I actually like the underlying idea presented here. I doubt it would ever happen, but it would be nice to have some options available.

As for getting lost on the way to Sunken Temple, are you serious? I don't want to make fun of you but that is seriously sad.

Ruhtra said...

You know what? I like this idea. I think it would be great to make the content relevant. You know how tired I got of seeing UK & Nexx when leveling my Priest.

As to the comment about taking three hours to do an instance, what game are you playing? They have split the longest dungeons into actual wings. Don't have time to run the whole thing, then feel free to stay for the section that you get from randoms and then bounce.

I can only hope that they would do something like this. Spice things up for when I level my next toon.

Adgamorix said...

I have to agree with Jen on this (regarding the gear, not getting lost), for me the game starts at 80 (or 85 as the case may be in Cataclsym). I'm not overly concerned with the items/drops/etc that I get from the existing dungeons. My goal is to get through them as quickly as possible, so I can get to the parts I enjoy.

I agree that they will hopefully mix some of the difficulty of TBC/Vanilla dungeons with the easier layout of Wrath. I think a lot of the player base has essentially gotten lazy - and that the skills we see missing now would come back if they were actually needed. Players don't CC because they don't have to - not because they don't want to (IMO). Why bother when you can AoE for great justice and get faster results?

RatherNotSay said...

@ Jen

The Vanilla dungeons are not really mazes. Perhaps if you didn't play the game when Vanilla was the content, I can understand the confusion but you most certainly do not need a PHD to run them. As far as saying that most players couldn't handle the BC dungeons, I have to disagree. You can faceroll those the same as you can the current Wrath dungeons. The difference is there is no reward for doing the upper level dungeons one you can get into UK & Nexx. My point is that it would be nice for them to even out the dungeons. In other words if you queue for a dungeon from 68-72, then you could end up with any dungeon for that range which will provide equal experience and gear, regardless of which expansion it was originally in. Also, if you are spending three hours in a BC dungeon, you probably have more issues than just wanting faceroll. Sorry but thanks for the comment none the less.

@ Anonymous

Thanks for the positive comments. As far as getting lost on the way to ST, that is just funny to me. Ofcourse so are the people who die in any number of random Vanilla dungeons and cannot find their way back. A players ineptitude does not mean a game is challenging, it just means they are challenged.

@ Ruhtra

That is my whole point. It makes content relevant. Allows the nubs of the game to experience the older content and makes it relevant by awarding proper item level gear and experience. What is not to like other than the fact it is a "change"?

@ Adgamorix

Perhaps my viewpoint was not expressed clearly enough. I am not saying force people into these dungeons. Nor am I saying give incentive in gear. I am saying to make the experience I earn from the level 70 BC dungeons comparable to the level 70 Wrath dungeons. Along those same lines, equal out the item drops so that they drop appropriate item levels as well. This provides more variety to the leveling process. It does not slow the process down. The BC instances could be cleared just as quickly by AoE as the Wrath content in my experience. Thanks for the comment though.

Jen said...

I do get lost and I know some people will think that makes me a fail player. Oh well. I'm just as bad in real life and I've learnt to deal with it (maps and telephones come to mind). WoW doesn't have maps for the Vanilla dungeons, so I'm fucked there. I would say you are sad if you base a player's skill at the game on her skills of getting around caves and labyrinths, but you're free to have an opinion I guess.

I was under the impression we were talking about pre-Dungeon Finder instances. Split up yes, they do take less, but my first WC took 2 hours (and we didn't finish it) and I can remember several TBC heroics where we spent hours wiping, even in T4. You were talking about heroics, weren't you? That's what you said in the post at least - heroic TBC dungeons with gear like starter Wrath dungeons. I was in a mid-progression guild in TBC (we got Vashj down but not Kael) and we still wiped on Zereketh in Arcatraz heroic and I almost missed my Hand of Ad'Al title because of repeated wipes on Murmur before the Gruul's raid. I have also been doing some lower tier TBC normals lately and they are absolutely NOT faceroll like UK and Nexus. You must be playing a different game than I am if you can believe that. Try to pull a whole room of Mana Tombs with the mana burning wyrms and faceroll that. Try to do any TBC heroic without CC and see how fast you die. Try to teach a mage or hunter who leveled in Wrath how to CC... have fun.

I get your point, but I seriously doubt enough players would embrace this. I might run the odd TBC heroic for nostalgia's sake and to see how it feels on a different class, but level 80 is where the game is at for me - and for most of the player base. I wouldn't mind TBC-STYLE heroics to come back, but I wouldn't want to run the actual TBC dungeons again on a regular basis.

(Oh, and btw, can anyone remember Old Kingdom before we were wearing T10? You know, wiping on Jedoga because the group didn't have enough DPS to kill the sacrificed guy? Wrath dungeons are not all faceroll; we just outgear them by a whole lot nowadays.)

RatherNotSay said...

@ Jen

" Imagine if when Cataclysm launched that the older dungeons were made viable again by Blizzard putting the same equivelant items in Stratholme as was in Ramparts? There would be a reason for people to run these instances now. Imagine if the heroic dungeons of Burning Crusade dropped items that were equivelant to the middle range of dungeons in Wrath such as Violet Hold and Draktheron Keep? It would certainly encourage people who are leveling their new Goblins or Worgen to run these dungeons. Now imagine if they removed the attunements for the older herocis and removed the labels of Vanilla, BC, and Wrath and whatever dungeon was appropriate for you, you then would stand a chance to get."

I am pretty sure I made the point that I was talking about a leveling of the dungeon system to make old world content viable again. Not just about running the old BC heroics, although they would be affected by the change.

As for the rest of what you said, it is off base of the point of the post. The post is about making all content relevant. Normalizing the items and experience for the content being run. So when you queue random dungeon at 70 you could end up with Shattered Halls, Utgarde Keep, or perhaps Heroic Ramparts. It really would have nothing to do with you choosing what to run and what not to run, but just like the current dungeon system would place individuals in the dungeons that best lines up with their current gear. As I stated in response to another comment, it would provide equal experience, equivilent gear, and perhaps teach some of the "new" players (as you mentioned) how to do things such as CC, if they really need to.

I realize I am an old school player from Vanilla where things were much more difficult and I may be in the minority, but this has nothing to do with what is considered easy or hard. This simply has to do with making the dungeon system a smooth progression through content and allowing people to see some good dungeons that they may have missed out on. Along the way, it may just help them become better players along the way.

Eus said...

Ok, then but I have to disagree with Jen here. I'm sorry, but I am a glutton for punishment for the old world stuff LOL.

Again, that's what makes the real world and WoW two beautiful places, there can always be a difference of opinion.

Too many times have I read the forums day in and day out for years that people want old vanilla back. So, I think there would be a strong enough audience for Rather's pitch, but as we all know, unfortunatley Blizz will not cave to that any time soon.

And again, there is no right or wrong answer here folks. There is plenty of content in this game that you can do whatever you want.

Adgamorix said...

Ah - I misunderstood your post, thanks for clearing it up. I don't know if it's rose colored glasses or what, but the instances were grand in scope. I think we'll see a lot of experience (if you mean XP) changes in the lower levels, just because they are redesigning so much of the old world.

RatherNotSay said...

@ Eus

Start the revolution for old world content! Yeah, I tend to view things more negatively than most people. I doubt it would be as massive a change as I would like to see but maybe a little tweak here or there to hold out some hope.

@ Adgamorix

It's alright, I have often times not stated my opinions very well, but that is somethign that I can work to improve on. I get these huge massive thoughts and then try to get them all down and sometimes it leads to a broken sentence or even thought, but glad you hung in there with me. I did mean XP also.